Again, you are asking ALL the right questions.
Answer ONE of the two questions:
1. "Bit by bit, at 124 and in the Clearing, along with the others, she had claimed herself. Freeing yourself was one thing; claiming ownership of that freed self was another" (111-112). What does this quote have to do with Baby Suggs calling the children, men, and women into the clearing earlier in that chapter?
2. Why include the section about the "sick Cherokees"?
Also, include anything you find notable, frustrating, etc.
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I think Baby Suggs called them into the clearing because, while they were technically free, they were clearly still weighed down by the memories of everything they endured as slaves. The "freeing yourself" part that Baby Suggs had them do was them releasing those memories and emotions by reliving and re-experiencing them (hence their crying and singing and dancing). This is basically a form of healing for them and, afterward, hopefully they would have accepted some part of their past enough that it would not have hurt them as much anymore and they could move on with their lives a bit more (freeing themselves from that burden).
ReplyDeleteokay, about tonight's reading......did the slaves.....you know...give head....to the guards....?
and about these "boxes" they stayed in....im trying to picture them and how mud could get in and all that but im just very confused.....help?
AND THEN theres the part with Beloved and Paul....im kind of scared to know what happened here but i can't deny im very curious about the entire exchange and what she was doing there in the first place....with him....at night.....
~Nicole Cholewa~
I believe Morrison included the part about the Cherokees as a way of showing that blacks were not alone at this time in history, in terms of their inferiority to whites. Blacks and native Americans were both oppressed by whites back then, so the two groups took comfort in each other. The Cherokees are the ones who actually break the chains holding the black men together, signifying that they are no longer alone and they can all become stronger now that they are free.
ReplyDelete--I found Morrison's reference to doves in chapter 10 very interesting/confusing. They are first mentioned on pg.127, "Heavy sometimes and if the dogs were quiet and just breathing you could hear doves." Later on that same page it says,"...listening to his soft grunts so like the doves'." Morrison references them once again on pg. 129, "..by the eighth day the doves were nowhere in sight." What is Morrison trying to demonstrate with these repeated references to doves? I am really confused, especially when Morrison is comparing a dove's cry to the grunting of the white guards as they receive oral sex from the black men.
**Christine Raley**
I think the part with Baby Suggs is like what Sethe experienced in that religion is very human. Humans are the only creatures to have religious beliefs, and it sort of separates us from animals. Taking control of your own religious beliefs and your own salvation is much the same as taking ownership of yourself after being freed. It's in your own hands. No one can make it happen for real except for you. Religion is a very personal battle. You can worship with others and ask for advice, but you're really alone. And both instances were internal struggles. No one could look at Sethe or the others after the fact and notice any physical change. But the internal renewal had the potential to change their behaivor and outlook.
ReplyDeleteThat part with Paul D and Beloved freaked me out too. I kept thinking, don't do it, don't do it. I'm pretty sure they did it.
Did Beloved do that to get Paul D in trouble? I guess we'll find out...
Jennifer Bora
did Paul D and Beloved have sex or just play around?? She is really creeping me out...Personally, I think that she went into the shed because she knows that Paul has sex with Sethe everyday..so she wants to make Sethe mad and send Paul D away so she can have Sethe all to herself..which further supports the argument of Beloved being a lesbian because she doesn't want a man in the "family" that they are trying to create....
ReplyDelete**Christine Raley**
I think that the reason the sick Cherokees were included could be because they were another minority group that was mistreated in history, around this time that the book takes place also I believe. The Cherokee Indians were not necessarily all slaves but they were moved from their home land and forced west, against their will. Although thinking about the sick part a little more... weren't a lot of Indians killed because of diseases and viruses brought by white man. I am not sure how this would fit in besides that they were of little importance to the whites but I am no history expert.
ReplyDeleteOne confusing part was trying to figure out what exactly happened to these men in prison. Like Nicole I find this hard to imagine. Does anyone have a comparison of what it may look like to help me/us out?
< Jeff Bono >
I think the section about the sick Cherokees was a comparison to African American's slavery. The section shows that both Cherokees and African Americans have been bound by the chains of slavery which explains the Cherokees' willingess to break the chains. While this section shows that they both dealt with slavery and racism, it seems that metaphorically the disease the Cherokees have is passiveness. The chapter lists all the events the Cherokee's lived through and put up with and how because they remained passive everything was still the same. It makes the reader want them to take action and create change.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm disturbed and kind of angry about Beloved and Paul. 1st off ew. I'm also disappointed with Paul's lack of control. I'm pretty sure Beloved's motive was to make Sethe mad and get Paul D out of the house, so i can see how Paul D may have been vulnerable, but still. In my opinion, Paul D just lost a lot of credibility.
Amber
I think that Morrison includes the scene with the Cherokees to show that whites had superiority over another group other than the slaves. It also reminds me of the article we read in the sense that the Cherokee pitied the blacks as did the whites pitied the slaves that were on trial for running away. I think Morrison also included it to point out the Paul D is not keen on asking for help as it says in the book "Paul D finally woke up and, admitting his ignorance, asked how he might get north". Paul D is someone that others count on, especially women and at this scene it switches to him now needing help. I found this some what humorous, because even today people talk about men never wanting to ask for directions and this scene reminded me of that.
ReplyDeleteOne question that I had, was at the end of chapter 11, was Paul D dreaming or did he and Beloved have sex? I was confused about what she meant by "touch me on the inside" that was interesting to me that she would say that to him because I had the feeling that she did not like Paul D because Sethe paid attention to Paul D.
~Aylla Lashaway
I think Morrison mentioned the part about the Cherokees because she wanted to show another class opressed by racism. It also gives me the feeling that it was everyone against the whites. It doesnt matter who it is, blacks, Indians, etc. but if you had a chance to help out against the majority, you did so. Also, Morrison might tie in that the Indians knew the land, and helped the slaves with the underground railroads. Could Morrison also show with the Indians being sick, they realized that life is so precious it should be lived through forced work? Or are the white slave owners the once that made the Indians sick through sexually transmitted disease? I just do not know.
ReplyDeleteWas there some force over Paul D when he had sex with Beloved?
What is up with that strangling part?
Chris Klimek
I think that the part about the sick Cherokees was included because at this time the Cherokees were also a minority just like the blacks. Both were discriminated against by the whites. I think that the Cherokees were sick because their sickness was probably caused by diseases brought by the white settlers and caused by the exhaustion of having to move from their lands. This relates with the slaves because the slaves are also constantly being pushed around by the whites and many of them were also forced to leave their homeland at one point.
ReplyDeleteI was also confused at the ending of chapter 11. Did they have sex? and if so I'm kind of shocked/disturbed by this. Was Beloved just doing this to make Sethe mad at Paul D?
-Jenny Cozza
At the Clearing, Baby Suggs had helped many children, men, and women liberate themselves from the shackles of their past. There seems to be two levels of freedom a slave can have: physical freedom from the plantation and the torture of the slave life, and mental freedom from the horrible, shocking memories and emotional scars from the experience. Even though a slave could have successfully relocated themselves away from their slave owners, if they do not somehow confront their emotions and memories, they will remain slaves to their own tortured minds. Baby Suggs tells the physically free slaves to cry, dance, and laugh as methods to mentally free themselves from the terrors of the past. Once the slaves were mentally free, then they were truly free to take control over their own lives and do as they want.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of chapter 10, it says “by the time he got to 124 nothing in this world could pry it open” (133), referring to the tobacco tin in which he had locked all of his bad memories. At the end of chapter 11, it says “… he didn’t hear the whispers that the flakes of rust made either as they fell away from the seams of his tobacco tin. So when the lid gave he didn’t know it” (137-138). I’m wondering if Beloved is actually honestly trying to do some good in the house. She becomes the companion Denver sorely missed, and helps Sethe get over some of her painful memories. If, perhaps, instead of trying to anger Sethe with an affair with Paul D, Beloved is actually aware of Paul D’s hurts as well, and is trying to help him overcome his past too.
I think that the Cherokees were included, like a few people above me had said, to demonstrate what happened to mistreated minorities beforehand. Basically, no matter what advances the Cherokees had made, they basically had no choice except to live in exile or live as fugitives, and with both those choices they weren't really accepted anywhere. I think Morrison is trying to show through their situation what the situation of the blacks at this time period was.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think Beloved or Denver are lesbians and don't understand the argument for why they are. Could someone explain?
Also, I'm still stuck on the strangling scene from earlier. Beloved mentions that she was "so close." Is Beloved trying to kill Sethe and if so why?
-Kelsey Loden
I think the part about sick Cherokees was just used to reinforce the effects of racism and inequality. Seeing multiple peoples affected by it puts it on a more worldly scope and makes us think about it as the reoccurring, large scale event that it was.
ReplyDeleteI was confused about the end of Chapter 11. When Paul D "wakes" himself, is he physically awakening from sleep or was he snapping out of some sort of trance that left him unaware of his actions?
Andrew Freeman
I think the inclusion of the Cherokees is used to compare the situation of the Cherokees to that of the black slaves and therefore show the bleakness of the situation. The history of the Cherokee tribe is provided in the passage about them and it shows that after all their tribe has been through over the years they are still rejected and living with disease. This could be meant to insinuate that at this point in history it seemed as if African Americans would never get true justice from all of their struggles and would continue to live with vestiges of their dark past. I think that this holds true even today to a certain extent.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that confused me is how having sex with Beloved opened up Paul D's tobacco tin. The tin has been used to represent his heart and his repressed memories, so the opening of it is pretty significant. I don't understand why sex with Beloved would be such a profound experience for him, since unlike Sethe and Denver he has had absolutely no prior experiences with her and seems completely unrelated.
Also, what is the significance of Here Boy disappearing?
-Donald Magnani
I think that Morrison includes the Cherokee scene because, as other people have stated before and which seems like the obvious answer, she wants to bring attention to the minority groups that were persecuted in the past. If I'm not mistaken (I'm really bad at history) the Cherokees and other Indian tribes were severely mistreated not too long before the whole slavery thing started, and I think that Morrison thought it would be a really good comparison because of the great similarities there were between those two groups being persecuted. Also, as just a random guess, it could be another way to show the persecution that minority groups endured if the reader can't understand or put themselves into the minds of the black slaves at the time.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm so confused about the strangling part too... I know that Beloved and Paul have this unspoken "hatred" between the two of them, but why.....is Beloved trying to get revenge on what her mother did to her a long time ago?
Stefanie Colletier
I think that the life the slaves were forced to live had to be so void of emotion that part of the transition into "normalcy" had to involve this ritual Baby Suggs performed. As slaves, they were not allowed to laugh- they were not allowed to dance- and they certainly were not allowed to cry, even though they had more to cry for than any of us will ever know. Baby Suggs' rendezvous in the clearing let the former slaves open their "rusted cans" (as Paul D describes his own heart) and compensate for all of their lost time in experiencing emotions like normal human beings.
ReplyDeleteNow for my "notable" comment from tonight's reading... WHAT on earth just happened between Paul D and Beloved. I mean, I feel like I know what happened... so better question- WHY did that just happen betweeen Beloved and Paul D?
Lisa
I think Morrison throws in the Cherokees to add a historical similarity to the escaping slaves. Like the slaves the Cherokees have been oppressed for hundreds of years and they have now separated themselves from the oppression. The Cherokees act as a go between for the slaves they are not the white society that the slaves want to eventually get to, but they aren't the slave society they came from. They are refugees as well but they have had time to decide on their own path.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I was curious about is the idea about killing life. My interpretation was it was killing the hope inside of them, but I was't sure if there was another meaning with it.
Geoffrey Vasudevan
I believe that the part about the sick Cherokees is included in order to show us more about Paul D's life. After slavery he didn't know where to go, he really didn’t have anywhere to go. He was the last person to leave the reservation, and I think that this really gives us insight to his character. And, I don't want to generalize, but I think that not knowing where to go or what to do after being freed or escaping was a common problem slaves had. If they were trying to escape, they had to figure out where to go so they wouldn’t be found, which was extremely difficult. And, if they were freed, they had to find a place to go live and find a job. And, after living with the Cherokees, Paul D starts his traveling and constant moving. He finds himself unable to stay in one place too long.
ReplyDelete-Brittany Gorecki
I think Morrison mentions the Cherokee to show that African Americans weren't the only ones mistreated in the past due to their race and culture. The scene where the Native Americans cut the chain off shows the slaves that they shouldn't feel alone and that their strength is in their numbers. This scene also shows that acts of kindness exist everywhere.
ReplyDeleteOne of my questions is why Sethe's baby is referred as crawling already? baby everytime, does she not have a name?
Also, why does Paul D keep saying red heart over and over again?
Anna Z
I think Morrison includes the part about the sick cherokees because like the blacks, they were another group that suffered from discrimination. Because both groups had suffered from the discrimination and hatred shown by the white people, they bonded and the cherokees broke their chains. I think the indians got the disease from the white people who took control of their lands.
ReplyDeleteIm so disappointed that Paul D. had sex with beloved. he obviously has no self control and I dont understand why beloved wanted this to happen. Is she trying to get back at Sethe for killing her? Also, im confused about who was strangling Sethe and why that happened.
Carlita Shen
I believe that Toni Morrison included the sick Cherokees in this section of Beloved because of the status the indians held in society at the time. Native Americans were considered barely better if not just as bad as a african americans at this time. The only reason why the Cherokee were not enslaved was because their abilities to live off the land and travel quickly without leaving tracks made it too easy for them to escape back into their primative lifestyles, whereas african americans would be a much easier catch if they tried to run away. Morrison highlights the similar social status of these two groups by portraying the Cherokee as the group that asisits the escaped African Americans to freedom. I also believe that in order to further emphasize the hard times expirienced by these two groups, Morrison made the choice to make this particular tribe sick.
ReplyDelete~ Jonathan Thorsell
When Baby Suggs calls all the women, men, and children into the clearing into to help them become individuals. Instead of just being physically freed from slavery, she helped them become mentally and emotionally free. When Sethe arrived at 124, I think she did the same thing. Although she was no longer owned by someone else, she still hadn't come to the point of owning herself. She hadn't learned to love herself and be free to do what she wanted. When Baby Suggs called the people to the Clearing, they would go through a cycle of crying, laughing, and dancing. By doing this, they were controlling themselves and taking ownership of themselves. Instead of only crying when someone else did something to them, they cried because they wanted to cry. Sethe slowly began going through that same process of becoming herself, instead of one who lives a life in a reaction to what others do.
ReplyDeleteAnd, as many others mentioned, what's going on with beloved and Paul D?
Teresa Finegan
I think that Morrison included the Cherokees because she wanted to compare and contrast the difference from being a Cherokee and being a slave at that time in history. The Cherokees might have been free, but the whites wanted to take all of their land and in the process they became a weak and sick group of people. The slaves are have no way of fighting back and are totally under the control of the whites. Basically everyone who is not white is against the whites, but there is nothing they can do about any of this so they all become a weaker/less dominant race. Morrison wanted to show this to help show how cruel whites could be.
ReplyDeleteOne thing i was confused about was what was going on with Paul D after him and Beloved had sex and why Beloved wanted to have sex with Paul D in the first place?
Tom Pasisis
As most people agree, I think the "sick Cherokees" were included to show the parallels between the slaves and Native Americans at the time. Both minority groups faced oppression from white people and had to find ways to cope with these struggles.
ReplyDeleteI also think this encounter mirrors the help the slaves were giving each other on their journey away from slavery. On page 131-132, it says "Still they protected each other as best they could...the sick stayed behind with the dead- to survive or join them." It's kind of like an underdog helping the underdog situation with the slaves just as the underdogs, or the Cherokees are helping the other underdogs, the slaves.
I enjoyed how on page 128, Morrison personified Life. She said, "More than the rest, they killed the firt whom folks called Life for leading them on." I thought this was a really good comparison as most readers are able to understand this feeling. I thought it was a fascinating way to convey her message.
However, I was confused on page 131 when it talked about the illness that sweep away "half their number two hundred years earlier." I'm really bad at history and don't remember what this event was. And is Morrison talking about the Cherokees or the slaves? All the events she lists after this statement just confused me as well. Can someone fill me in?
Christine Spasoff
I think that the reason the sick Cherokees were included was because they were another minority group that was mistreated in history like the African Americans. The Cherokee Indians were forced to move from their land just like how the black people were forced to go into slavery and relocate to America. In addition, the "sick Cherokee" part is referring to the diseases that the Indians faced because of the white men that came to their town.
ReplyDeleteI am very confused about Beloved's purpose right now. I don't understand what her motive is to coming back. I first thought it was to reconnect with Sethe, but now I feel as if she's trying to take everything away from her.
-Stacey Kim
I think the part about the Cherokee indians was included to show how another race has fought numerous times for themselves and don't really succeed but yet they keep fighting. On page 131 it explains how the Cherokees " had visited George III in London, published a newspaper, made baskets, led Oglethorpe through forests..." and so on to show the amount of things they've been through. Although I'm confused about the significance of some of their accomplishments because they don't seem that significant, at least compared to running away from slavery, or surviving the working/ living conditions Paul D and the other men survived. Other then that I think the passage was included to compare the Cherokees to the slaves. In my opinion though, the slaves have much harder lives and must accomplish greater things to be free.
ReplyDelete~Allie Drost~
The Cherokee in the novel, as some of my peers have stated, are yet another example of an oppressed and self opinionated people who have been thrown and shoved by “the whiteman”. The author seems to compare the two differing races and contrast it to the whites, clearly yet subtly saying that the mistreatment, even when benefit comes from alliance, will always be a standard because there is inherit inequality between the peoples. At this section of the book, the “46 Men” are like the Cherokee themselves, in that they are outlaws, hell-bent on maintaining their own moral values and most of all remaining free from bondage and oppression. The sickness shared between the Cherokee people is not literal in the sense that the black men are sick, but in the sense that they are sick of enslavement and ill treatment. They are sick of being enslaved. They “two camps” might represent the difference between freedom and enslavement to the black men, who see the sickly life as being one of either half life or death.
ReplyDeleteI see many comments about Paul D sleeping with Beloved, did he really? Was his screaming out “red heart” the actual deed?
.: Mike Metzen :.
The Cherokees were included because,like African Americans, they too were violated by whites. Although they weren't slaves, the Native Americans were forcibly stripped of their land. The two discriminated against groups are ideally teaming up against the white supremacy when the Cherokees help free the slaves. I don't know the reasoning for the Cherokees being sick though. Also, what is Beloved's deal? Now she's really creepin on Paul D.
ReplyDeleteDOUG MAYER
٩(̾●̮̮̃̾•̃̾)۶ __̴ı̴̴̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡ ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡π̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲|̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı̴̡̡ ̡͌l̡̡̡̡.
I also think that the the part about the Cherokees was included because they were considered inferior to whites back then also. I think that although black slaves were not relocated in huge groups like the Native Americans, they were separated from their families by death and other means just like the Native Americans were.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, Morrison is trying to make her readers understand that any kind of abuse to any group of people is not good, and that it wasn't just blacks who received this treatment in the past.
Also, I was so super super super weirded out by the part where the slaves were on their knees and stuff. I read the first comment before i started reading, and I was like, what?, then I read the part and I was like WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.....
I'm also really freaked out by Beloved. She is a life-ruiner and a creepy ghost girl that likes to ruin people's lives. Just kidding.
But not really. I was super shocked that Paul D did stuff with Beloved even though he had Sethe, even though he was unhappy in 124 in the last few days or so.
I was confused about the part about his tobacco tin. It's a metaphorical tin, right? and why was he yelling red heart over and over again? whats the significance of the red heart in comparison to the (maybe) metaphorical tin?
gracegracegracegracegracegracegracegracegracegracegrace
I agree that the sick Cherokees were included because of their minority status. The Cherokee’s had their native lands destroyed by the white settlers and the blacks were taken from their native lands by whites. The Cherokees being sick is the struggle that the slaves went through and the hardships that they all endured. I think this shows how blacks were not the only group that the settlers of the US overpowered. I think it’s sad that so many big parts of the birth and development of our country happened along with the suffering that so many groups of people went through.
ReplyDeleteAlso, what happened between Beloved and Paul D? is it more of a metaphor? Or is it part of Beloved’s plan to get closer to Sethe?
Blaire
Grace's comment made me think about the Tinman from the Wizard of Oz... he wanted a heart. Does this connection actually make some sort of sense, or is it a bit of a stretch?
ReplyDeleteThe main point of gathering in the clearing is so that all the slaves and oppressed people are able to have a time that they can lavish in peace and happiness, as well as their culture. Baby Suggs stresses the fact that white folk will never love their "imperfect" features, so they must love them for themselves as much as possible. Therefore, that is what "claiming ownership of oneself" is all about. Even after people were freed, they still felt heavily burdened by the pasts they wished to forget, and the pain of losing loved ones. However, claiming their freedom gave them a chance to do this. This liberation is even parallel to its setting in the wilderness. In nature, everything is free.
ReplyDeleteI just am a little confused on what exactly happened to Paul D. How I interpreted the events was that he and 46? other men are chained together in bits, and they feel extremely claustrophobic. Then they're placed in huge ditches, within coffins with bars? And Paul D, specifically, is there because he tried to kill his master... I think.
-YALE CHO THE HO
I think the sick Cherokee part is included because they were also discriminated against and hurt by white people. Their land was robbed from them, they were killed, and they were just all around mistreated. This is just another bad mark on the white man's report card. And yea, that just happened. Brought report cards into this. But anyway, report card, bad marks, Cherokees. This is another group that whites have disturbed for their own comfort. Maybe Morrison is trying to show that as white people, we just invade and take over and start up slow-pitch softball leagues (Family Guy lulz). I don't think Morrison is writing to put something against the white society, but she is just showing one more oppression we have cause. Not me personally. I don't oppress. So at this point, I don't even have enough energy to know I'm tired, but yea I have to go. It was nice posting.
ReplyDeleteMax "Master-Chief" Moss
I think that the whole "freeing themselves" part has to do with freeing themselves of the grip OTHERS had on them, while "claiming ownership of that freed self" is freeing themselves of the tight grip they have on themselves. For example, they physically freed themselves of slavery. The claimed their free selves by breaking loose from the emotional slavery that they had gotten themselves into as a defense. Claiming themselves was the act of gaining a clear mind and a healthy grip on their emotions.
ReplyDeleteok i was a little fuzzy on some little details in 10 & 11, but for the most part, I don't have any questions. I thought the whole thing about Paul D. and the 45 other guys being forced to preform oral sex on the white men was awful. Also, I'm pretty weirded out by Beloved.
"I want you to touch my inside part and call me my name." WHAT?!?! that was too much. I laughed, though. Paul D. took this pretty well.
Why did Beloved try to strangle Sethe if she loves her so much? Is she returning the favor? Is she trying to save her mother from all the pain in her life?
Why doesn't Paul D. like 124 anymore? Is he really just sick of it, or is there more to that?
- Molly
I think the Cherokees were added because they served to give Paul D hope. I think that it wouldn’t have had the same effect if he broke the chains by himself. If so, I think he’d be a hard person like Sethe rather than the Paul D I think about as of now. The Cherokees are a different race showing him compassion, and in a time when it seems like everyone is out to get you, a helping hand from a stranger could give him the will to go on. By seeing the goodness of some people, Paul D is reenergized and more determined to find freedom in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteAs for my question, if Paul D is so afraid of Beloved, so much so that he moves around and must sleep outside because of Beloved’s presence, how come they get it on? Wouldn’t he be uneasy still or have some thoughts of doubt in his mind?
-Kevin
Baby Suggs calling the other people into the clearing was a way of showing herself that she was able to be satisfied with herself. With all of the other people there, it was almost a calming and rewarding experience that possibly showed she was finally able to come to peace with herself.
ReplyDeleteAll of them being there, even though they were technically free, was a way for them to all share and possibly go over everything that they all had been through, which after this was able to bring them to an inner peace from before that wasnt possible.
Chris Ramirez
Sooo.. I just woke up, took a nap expecting to wake up at 10PM, no big, just 8 hours later.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I hope this still counts.
The Cherokee Indians are the tribe that was forced to go on the Trail of Tears which is arguably the cruelest single act that the white man has done in American history. I say single act, because slavery isn't just a single act its more of an idea that was established with multiple actions of it instated across the country.
That being said Native Americans have been oppressed longer than than African Americans in North America and the fact that the Cherokee are alive and even freeing some of the slaves shows that there is hope for these African American slaves.
I really need to brush my teeth now, soo, bye everybody!
I hope Chris gets some sleep though ^^ jeez, 3:43!
Morrison includes the part about the sick cherokees because they are another minority group that have been mistreated by whites during this time period. By being united with another minortity group, the black slaves had something in common with the cherokee indians who have also been through so much hardship and were able to break free of the opression that was placed upon them by whites. This was symbolized by the breaking of the chain. The prisoners had found people that had been through just as much abuse that they have been through and this provided common ground for them to connect on.
ReplyDeleteBeloved and Paul D was just messed up
-James
The Cherokee Indians in this book serve as a contrast to the previous chapters, which only seemed to explain and detail the interactions between blacks and "whitepeople." When we discussed the reason why Paul D hated Mister so much, it was a clear parallel to the reason why he tried to kill Brandywine. In this way, the Cherokee Indians show the gray area between freedom and slavery. While they are not actually being held captive, they are still horribly mistreated, and their unwillingness to resist it - as opposed to the slaves, who are constantly struggling to run away to freedom - creates a rather sad image, in that there are two types of freedom, and one of them is hardly free at all.
ReplyDeleteWait, what? I thought Beloved hated Paul D? Didn't they just have a big arguement- or did I miss something? Because the end of chapter 11 was NOT what I expected at all.
◘ Jeffrey Hoerman ◘
I think there are a couple of ways to look at the sick cherokee part. It could be looked at very literally, where the cherokees are a means of keeping the story going. We wouldn't have a story if Paul D is chained to the rest of the slaves for the rest of the book, so he needs a way of getting free.
ReplyDeleteHowever, since this is gothic literature, and Morrison writes with what I consider to be an excessive amount of symbolism, there has to be something more, because they're all sick and that seems unlikely. I agree with what seems to be the common consensus. That the cherokees are there because they represent another group of people that are bullied by whites. However, I still think that one reason they are there is to keep the story moving also.
One thing that confuses me is whether Paul D and Beloved REALLY had sex. It says at the end that Paul D woke up. Could he have been talking in his sleep? This would explain why both Denver and him woke up, and Beloved has the ghostly powers to infiltrate peoples' minds.
-Eric Freeburg
Since there is no new question, I'm gonna assume here that me just posting here is gonna count.
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm here, not the biggest fan of Denver.
John "Lone Wolf" McCarthy
This post will hopefully count for two days...because I wasn't in class on tuesday so I didn't know we had to post. It better count because I just spent the last hour trying to read it....
ReplyDeleteAnyway, as most people were saying, I think that the scene with Baby Suggs has to do with that quote because Baby Suggs is helping the freed slaves to regain their sense of humanity and self by teaching them to love themselves again. When we learned about brainwashing in Psych, we learned that losing a sense of self by being a faceless member of a group was one way people become brainwashed. I feel like this was probably happening a lot with the freed slaves: for so long, they were only seen as faceless work animals, and in that, lost their sense of self and worth. Baby Suggs is trying to give it back.
As for an observation, I read the chapters this time trying to see Beloved more as a metaphor than a character, like we talked about in class today. It worked pretty well. I think she represents the past. The characters had repressed their personal pasts for so long that they took human form and came back to torment them. What the characters need to do is revisit those memories, accept and take ownership of them, and MOVE ON. And stop paying so much attention to Beloved.
Also, was anyone else super creeped out by that voice in the movie today? That's not how I expected it at all...
-Katie Oakes
(very-LATE)
ReplyDeleteThe significance of the ex-slaves gathered in the clearing near 124; was the acceptance and deliverance of grace and confidence to the newly freed race. The people of slavery may be out the frying pan; but, they went directly into the fire. Society looks down upon and ignores them for what they are, as opposed to welcoming them as the sort of missing link of diversity in the culture.
Even as Baby Sugs spoke the men were riding to collect Sethe and her babies. No one in this age was willing to give them a break; so symbolically the people are learning to believe and seek support in only themselves.
-Sarah