- hear from those who are less prone to contributing to a verbal discussion, but who have valuable insights
- allow us to continue our class discussions beyond the bell
- help others in class further understand the novel
- give us a chance to ask our own questions
You are required to do TWO things right now:
1. Answer the question posted below.
2. Contribute one thing you find interesting, frustrating, confusing, etc.
If you DO NOT HAVE A GOOGLE ACCOUNT and DO NOT WANT ONE, then please WRITE YOUR NAME at the end of your comment before you post as "anonymous."
QUESTION: At this point in the novel, do you consider Sethe to be a good or evil character? Explain your reasoning.
Write your comment. Remember, if you don't have a google account (and don't want to create one), then sign your name at the bottom of the comment and click "anonymous" before posting your comment.
ReplyDeleteI consider Sethe to be a good character because she would do anything to protect Denver. She said on page 54 (even after Denver is rude to Paul D), "Excuse me, but I can't hear a word against her. I'll chastise her." She continues on saying that she will always protect her even after Sethe's death. I think Sethe has been through a lot that has strengthened her character, and Paul D even describes this when he points out her iron eyes with a backbone to match. All the hardships that she has faced has shaped her as a person, but I do not consider her to be evil, I more consider her to be a strong person.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that is interesting to me is that whenever the house is mentioned, the characters always call it "124" they never just dismiss it as a house. It is kind of like naming it and giving it personal traits.
~ Aylla Lashaway
So far in the novel, I think that Sethe is portrayed as a very strong and independent woman. Although some people may consider her evil for slitting her baby's throat, she performed the murder to protect the baby from living a devastating life in slavery. That action took a lot of guts and could be viewed as heroic. I also think Sethe is a good character because of the way she has raised Denver. I think that because Sethe didn't know her own mother, she wants to take advantage of having her own daughter and develop a mother-daughter bond that she never had while growing up. Although Sethe is portrayed as a good character right now, I believe that she will turn evil later in the novel. So far, we know that Sethe married Halle, however we don't know that happened to him. Sethe could have performed an evil act that made Halle run away. The article that we read for homework stated that in gothic literature, there is a confusion of good and evil within characters, so I think that Sethe will change throughout the novel as she begins to confess her secrets about her past.
ReplyDeleteI find the carnival very interesting at the end of chapter 4. Chapters 1-3 were pretty dark and sad, and then suddenly this uplifting event took place. I believe that Morrison wanted Sethe to go out in the community after being locked up for 18 years and experience a fun time with Paul D. If she feels more confident and comfortable around Paul D, then it will help ease the pain in revealing her secrets to him. I think that in the upcoming chapters, something very dark and creepy will happen to contrast the light, energetic mood portrayed at the carnival.
*Christine Raley*
At this point in the novel I do consider Sethe to be a good character. Granted I think the fact that this is a book makes it different because I have a feeling I would probably pass much more judgement on someone who killed their child in real life, but it the book when we start to see Sethe’s struggles and reasoning, and everything we went through, her choice seems more justifiable. Also, Morrison shows us how much Sethe cares for Denver through how she babies her, how she protects her, and how she tries to please her. Plus, Sethe’s hope for better a future with her, Paul D, and Denver makes me want to like her.
ReplyDeleteI’m confused about why Sethe keeps saying they stole my milk- I don’t exactly get what happened there… I’m curious about what questions the schoolteacher asked Sixo that broke his spirit and I’m curious about what happened to Paul D in Prison. I liked how Morrison used something Amy says- “Anything dead coming back to life hurts,”- to parallel what Sethe and Paul D continually experience.
*Amber
I beleive that Sethe is a good character with a good heart who has just been placed in rough situations in her life. The only thing she lives for now is for her daughter and would do literally anything for her to be safe. She slept with an engraver just so she could have "Beloved" carved on her first born's gravestone, just think what she would do for Denver.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I am curious about is what the schoolteacher said to sixo that broke him down and I am also confused on why Paul D and Denver do not get along like they should. Another thing i wondered was if Paul D and Sethe ever had any sexual relations while he was kissing her scars. I thought it was interesting how Paul D fealt that no slaves should love anyone too much because that person could get taken away from them very easily.
- Tom Pasisis
I agree that Sethe is a good character. Her love for Denver shows that she would not have killed her other daughter unless she felt she had no better option. The fact that Sethe thinks so little of the moment when she murdered her baby suggests that the memory is worse for her than even memories of Sweet Home. Sethe is not a cold-blooded killer; rather, she is a mother who is prepared to do what she feels is best for her children even thought she knows the repercussions of her choices will haunt her for the rest of her life.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I found interesting was the way Morrison uses the words whitepeople and coloredpeople as single, combined words. Instead of white and colored being adjectives to describe people, the ideas of humanity and race are mixed to form one identity. Whitepeople and coloredpeople seem more like different species than different shades of the same human life.
-Jennifer Bora
Like others, I would say that Sethe isn't an evil character. She killed her daughter not because she was vengeful or murderous but because she honestly felt it was the right thing to do. And despite the fact that she teases Denver, it's clear that she does care about her.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was interesting how closely Morrison's language with the corn fit with the images of Sethe and Halle's sexual relations. I honestly would've never thought that it was possible to talk about corn and sex using the same words, but the loose silk stuff worked pretty well.
-Kelsey Loden
I agree with Christine when she said that Sethe is a gothic character with both good and evil in her. She seems like a good mother to Denver, but at the same time, she killed her kid. I'm leaning toward her being a good character. But, I don't really think we can decide if she's more good than evil until we've read more because we don't have enough information yet.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that Morrison took up so much space explaining Sixo's woman and how he had to walk so far just to see her for an hour. Unless he becomes a bigger character later in the book, I don't think it was necessary to talk about it for so long.
~Melissa Scholl
@Kelsey-
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more. I will never look at corn the same way again.
I hesitate to say that Sethe is a "good" character, since it is rather early in the book. The question sort of implies that - if not now, then eventually - there could be a rather convincing argument built out of later information that would condemn Sethe as evil. However, based on the first four chapters, Sethe does seem to be a well-meaning character. As people have already mentioned, she cares strongly for her family: fiercely protecting her daughter from whatever she deems is a threat, killing her baby to save her from slavery, and watching for her sons. Sethe is also trying to shelter Denver from her horrible past in slavery, saying on page 44 that Denver "can't never go there" and the memories - or slavery in general? - are "waiting for you." At some point, though, I think that Sethe will break, and Denver will find out.
ReplyDeleteI found it a little difficult to follow the part where Sethe is talking about her rememory on page 43. A rememory sounds more powerful than regular memories; they seem to leave an even stronger mark than regular memories. Sethe says "What I remember is a picture floating around out there outside my head," which I interpret as the rememory is so strong that she can see it with her eyes instead of her mind. But then she says "It's when you bump into a rememory that belongs to somebody else," and that's where I got confused. How can someone's memory or rememory be so potent and strong, that others experience the same thing? Is it the same rememory that they are sharing? Something about the other person that jogs your own rememory?
-Stephanie Baumgart
I think that Sethe is a good character. So far she seems to be doing things for everyone else but herself. She cares for her daughter, Denver, a lot and it is very clear she is probably the motivation in her life. Soon after Paul D. comes to stay with them she also comes to care about him very quickly. Maybe this is because they lived together at Sweet Home? One action that she did was clean up the coffee he spilled and got him a new cup after he was insulted by Denver. In my mind, this qualifies Sethe to be on a "good character" list.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I found to be confusing was the end of Chapter 2 (the bottom half of page 32 and the rest of 33). Is this some sort of metaphor or literary devices comparing the corn to something? Or is this just talking about corn?
.::Jeff Bono::.
I think that Sethe is a good character who has to be evil for the good of her family. For her family to survive, she must be hard and mean. I also believe the way she grew up as a slave makes her have no emotions. If you live in a life with no happiness, you lose what happiness truly is. The fact that she killed her kid is unbelievably hard to overlook, but I do think that there is a good reason for her actions.
ReplyDeleteI find it confusing that Paul D asks who owns her house. I was thought to believe that they were now free, but the text does seem to hint that they are still owned by a white family.
Chris KLimek
I agree it's a little early in the book to be making assumptions on characters, but I disagree that she's a good character. I do not believe that by killing her daughter she did the right thing. Although she may view slavery as painful and hellish work, there is always a positive view. What if slavery had been abolished in 25 years? What if they made a life for themselves in the north? I feel like by killing her daughter she made an "in the moment" foolish decision. No "good" person would kill their own daughter under any circumstances.
ReplyDeleteAlex Hattenhauer
I consider Sethe to be a good character. She has done bad things, but once the reader learns more about her life and the struggles she has faced we learn that she had good intentions. If a woman kills her baby because she does not want her to be taken back to a plantation, it says more about the conditions and the horrors of slavery than Sethe's character. She took her baby's life to protect her, because at that point, Sethe believed that was the best way to save/help her child. I'm not saying what she did was right, but given the context of the situation one can see that Sethe didn’t have evil intentions.
ReplyDeleteI think that Sethe is a broken, tired woman who, despite everything that has happened to her, still finds a way to love her child and let others into her life. Paul D was surprised by the fact that she even had the strength to love, "For a used-to-be-slave woman to love anything that much was dangerous…" (54). An evil person wouldn’t take risks on something like love.
-Brittany Gorecki
In my opinion Sethe seems to be a good character. Even though she did kill her own baby I think Sethe knows what's best for her children. I'm not saying that she was right in killing her child but there must be a reason why she felt the need to do that. I also think she's a good character by the way she portrays herself and acts around others. Sethe is known to be a very independent and strong woman who genuinely cares for her children, especially Denver. Also the passage on page 41 shows what a fighter Sethe is and how she's such a strong human being. " Below her bloody knees, there was no feeling at all; her chest was two cushions of pins. It was the voice full of velvet and Boston and good things to eat that urged her along and made her think that maybe she wasn't, after all, just a crawling graveyard for a six-month baby's last hours." After reading this passage I decided that no one this determined to live and keep her baby living could be evil.
ReplyDeleteA few things that I was wondering about are: On page 17 Sethe and Paul D discuss moving out of the haunted house and Paul D asks who owns the house and Sethe asks " What you care?" So who owns the house? Also, on page 26 Morrison discusses Sixo and a tree, what's the significance of the tree? Or the entire discussion?
~Allie Drost~
I think Sethe is a good character so far in the novel. While it may appear that she is a somewhat evil character because she kills her child, like Brittany said, this is more reflective of the terrible nature of slavery than Sethe’s personality. I think it says a lot about her that she killed her own child so that they would not have to suffer the same struggles she had to face while enslaved.
ReplyDeleteSethe also has sex with the engraver so that “Beloved” can be engraved on her baby’s headstone. I don’t think an overall “bad” character would do such a selfless act in order to have their child remembered after death.
While Sethe may appear evil because of the hard “iron” front she puts up, I think this is only due to the tough experiences she has been through. Sethe is constantly trying to repress the memories of her time at Sweet Home. In order to protect herself from reliving the pain, she closes herself off from her surroundings. To this end, I do not think that she is “evil” but has simply gone through some difficult situations and is using defense mechanisms to get past them.
I am interested by the many references to color in the book. Morrison talks about the red of the house representing the ghost baby. Denver’s “room” in the backyard that she uses as a sort of playhouse is referred to as having a green hue. Morrison also mentions various colors in the house, the “orange squares in a quilt” and the “scraps of blue serge, black, brown and gray.” I’m looking forward to uncovering the importance of color as we continue to read.
-Christine Spasoff
At this point in the book I think that Sethe is a good character since she seems to really care about Denver. I feel that if she was an evil character she wouldn't feel as protective as she does for Denver. I think that for the most part Sethe is a good person who was just in difficult situations.
ReplyDeleteThe part that I found confusing was on page 43 in chapter three where Sethe was talking about rememory. Sethe says "What I remember is a picture floating around out there outside my head." She then goes on to say that other people can also see this memory/ picrture. I don't get how this is possible and how you can bump into someone else's memory.
Jenny Cozza
Sethe, is my accordance with the question, is by no means an evil character. We begin to see bits and pieces of her past unfold throughout the first 4 chapters, and it is clear that she is seemingly more innocent than evil. One of the clear indications of this is when she asked for a wedding from Mrs. Garner, to which she was "politely" declined. Her confusion and innocent state of mind on the subject reflects her personally not only in her past, but in her future as well. From her romantic encounters in the corn stalk to the frightful experiences of being raped, the drive behind her character alone allows for the dispute over her fortitude as a character to be settled in favor of good. Sethe has had a very troubling past. Toni Morrison attempts to create almost a sense of sympathy for the character by showing her in down and degraded states. It’s her ability to cry, her ability to love so dearly for her children (to the point of murder), and most of all her attachment to the past (most notably not wanting to leave the house) that create the senses of good rather than evil in her character. However, is must be taken into account that she did murder her baby to save it from slavery. While the prospect of murder cannot be dismissed, no matter how distressed the circumstances are, there is a part of me that sees where she is coming from. In part of my family past, mothers in Greece actually performed similar grotesque injuries to prevent their children from serving in Hitler’s army. It’s interesting to see the issue in a different light, but as some of the others have said, it was an in the moment decision that has and will always haunt her for the rest of her life.
ReplyDeleteNow as for the other part of the requirement, there are a few too many parts of the book where I am confused, but I will stick to one in particular. In chapter three Sethe seems to quote numerous strange things, and one of these was the visions or thoughts of the antelope. What does the antelope represent to her? What does the antelope represent as a whole and why even include it in the first place? She goes around in circles with the subject, talking about past experiences from where she was born and the antelope dances. However, in the context she is speaking, it seems that she is referring to something deeper in herself or in her past. Grrrr… Very frustrating :)
.: Mike Metzen :.
I definately feel that Sethe is a good character. She's flawed, but who isn't? And it's obvious her past is no where near sunshine and rainbows so she would have certain mental scars and trauma from it. I just feel she's been through so much that, even when she tries to make the right decision, it's skewed to something that has unforeseen consequences (like, she didn't expected to have a haunted house after she killed her baby to spare her the hardship of slavery).
ReplyDeleteAs for confusing points, I don't know if this is just me but, did anybody else get the sense of sex on pages 32 and 33 with all of the analogies? And there's something about Denver's secret tree place....(like why did she have to put her clothes back on when she was leaving on page 35......?)AND, i don't get the schoolteacher...he seems evil in certain parts but then you read about him writing a book on slavery like he wants to get their side of the story to help their cause or something...and I was lost on the 2nd to last full paragraph on page 28 where she's talking about Sweet Home and mint sprigs and fools.....
~Nicole~ (Cholewa)
Up to this point in the book I agree ith what most people have said that Sethe is a god character. While I don't believe she always makes "good" decisions I think that she genuinely tries to do what is right. It is obvious that she loves her daughter Denver deeply and I'm sure she loved her baby as well. Even though it's hard to say whether she made the right choice in murdering her baby I don't think she did it to be a murderer I think he intentions and her preasons behind it were not evil. I also believe that the fact that she can still love others after what people have put her through also shows a lot about her character. It's clear to me that there are elements of the "gothic" character in Sethe because she can be seen as either good or evil. However, I don't believe she is evil or bad maybe just that sometimes she makes bad choices. But it's still early in the novel so there's a lot of time for things to change.
ReplyDeleteOne part I was confused about was when the schoolteacher was asking Sixo questions that broke his spirit, I'm not too sure what happened there and also on page 12 when Mr. Garner was talking about how his slaves were mean and then he went to saying he wouldn't let black men around his wife, but wasn't Halle's brother close to Mrs. Garner? That part confused me a little bit but maybe I read it wrong.
Amber Elmore
At this point, I definitely don't consider Sethe to be an evil character, although she is troubled. I haven't found any evidence suggesting that she is evil. I think we can all agree that she's pretty much been a victim all her life. She works very hard to raise Denver well. This is displayed when she is going into labor with Denver in the field. She resorted to crawling away from what she thought was a white boy just so she could get milk to her other daughter & protect the baby inside her. She even planned to chew off the strangers feet. Another example is when she was talking about leaving Sweet Home. Paul D was in shock at the fact that the schoolteacher had Sethe beat when she was pregnant. Sethe, once again focused on others, was more caught up with the fact that they "took her milk."
ReplyDeleteso apparently i lost my previous comment....it didn't post or something so i'll give a brief summary. I think Sethe's good, just slightly lead astray by her horrible past (but her intentions aren't bad and, yes, she's flawed but everyone is)
ReplyDeleteNow to confusing parts, pg. 28, 2nd to last full paragraph....me lost!
pgs. 32-33 is it just me or is there some hidden inuendo written in there?
Denver's secret tree place: what does she do there? because i was under the impression that she played make-believe with invisible friends....
Oh, and page 49....what is this box Paul D was trembling in......? because I'm thinking coffin, but (clearly) that is not the case
~Nicole~ (Cholewa)
OK so here are some "stones in the road" that i encountered:
ReplyDelete1) LOTS of colors description (especially with white used to describe the stairs & 2nd floor)
2) what is with Denver and her lonliness? i completely understand why she would feel this way, but i kind of think she likes the baby's haunting. It seems as though she feels like shes part of a group when everyone has that common enemy/fear of the baby's ghost.
3) Denver's little fort thing...i know someone's going to think i'm a total pervert, but here it goes. Was she masturbating in there?! I say this because "appetite" and "hunger" are often used to describe sexual desires in this book, and the part where they talk about Denver's little fort thing says, "Denver's imagination produced its own hunger and its own food, which she badly needed because loneliness wore her out. Wore her out...She dressed herself." (pg. 35)
I could very well be way off, but i had to ask! She's very young, but they do say she is too physically mature (her boobs)!
in response to Nicole Cholewa:
ReplyDeleteThat's totally an inuendo. It says "How quick the jailed-up flavor ran free." I think there's quite a bit of similarity between that & the whole thing about Sethe & Paul D. having sex, sex lasting very short, and how all the sexual tension was gone afterwards.
I believe that someone who is evil is someone who does things with the intent of harming others or does bad things soley for the sake of doing bad things. I don't think that this characterizes Setha at all. Although I don't think that all the desicians Setha has made in her life were good, I think the intentions behind those desicians were good. Within the first few pages of the book, when the reader finds out that she killed her own child, some people may be inclined to conclude that this seemingly evil action would make Setha an evil person. Even though I don't think I would have done the same thing as she did, I believe her action can be justified because she was probably trying to do what she thought would be in the best intrest of her child. I am sure it was not easy for her to do that, so in a sense this action of killing her child might have been self-sacrificing.I have noticed that Setha always seems to have a concern for others. This seems to be especially evident in the way that Setha is always thinking about her baby, Denver, as she is running away. Although she is in excruciating pain, she seems to be most focused on calming the baby inside of her. This care that she has for others is what I believe makes her a good person.
ReplyDeleteI felt that was able to get everything pretty well in the first two chapters and the fourth chapter. However, I was starting to get a little bit frustated and confused during the third chapter. I think the sudden change in setting and the frequent time changes threw me off a bit. On page 35 and 36 I wasn't sure if it was taking place in the present or the past.
Also, as Mike mentioned, I am little bit confused with the concept of the antelope.
Teresa Finegan
I think Sethe is a good character at this point in the book, because you can tell that she would do anything to do what's best for her daughters and even prostituted herself to give a nice headstone for her child that she sacrificed. She knew it would be for the best if her baby didn't have to go through the torture of slavery and left the world in sweet ignorance.
ReplyDeleteSomething I've wondered while reading is that did Paul D and Sethe have sex? It seems like there was some references to it, but nothing very clear. Ohhp, upon further reading, pretty sure they did. Yup, definately did.
And also, yes, that thing with the corn is EXACTLY what you think it means. It's pretty funny with the connections there, and found that interesting, aswell with how Halle showed the Pauls and Sixo respect by going to the cornfields as opposed to right in the cabin where they all could hear/see. It really reverberates what Mr. Garner says about his slaves being men. They are a classy folk. Relatively speaking of course, relations with cows isn't my definition of class, but who am I to judge?
*)(*-John McCarthy-*)(*
I think Sethe is a basically good character. In fact she may even be considered the protagonist of the book.The decision she made to kill her own child was perhaps the greatest of all motherly sacrifices. However, disgusting or unfathomable her choice was it was motivated by the repressed thoughts of what this child may have to endure. The survivor mentality that she portrays throughout the first few chapters "iron eyed" makes it clear that she knew what was best for that child. As a reader I can over look this action on the sole reason that I believe the repressed memories of Sweet Home and its horrors came rushing back to Sethe. In this nightmare, however, it was her bouncing baby girl that was being tortured and raped. Such a violent upheaval of these terrible memories spurred the action of a distraught mother.
ReplyDeleteI wonder whether any of the other Sweet Home men still felt as passionately toward Sethe as Paul D did after leaving 18 years ago?
-Sarah Nelson
Also, Molly about the whole Denver masturbating in there, I kinda read that too, so don't feel like you're the only one out there.
ReplyDeleteSethe is definately a good character. She did kill her baby- but she had to. And yes she is often referred to as stone-like and iron-eyed, but how could she have survived any way else? In fact, her ability to present herself as the epitome of strength, determination, and power is truly quite remarkable given the turmoil that takes place inside of her. Moreover, she is able to be this pillar of stregth while maintaining the ability to be a loving mother and caretaker to Denver. It's amazing to me that she even has even been able to develop such a concept of love given the way her own mother was simply pointed out to her amidst a group of faceless slaves.
ReplyDeleteWhy does Sethe sleep with Paul the day he comes?? She says she feels unprepared and that she had forgotten what desire even WAS, so why was it just assumed that the two would sleep together? Especially after Morrison went to great lengths to describe Paul's great amount of self-restraint and the fact that Sethe had never had a child with anyone but Halle...
-Lisa Koenig
I'm jumping on the Alex Hattenhaur express. In my book, if you cut someone's neck and watch them bleed to death, you are not a good person. And if you can sleep after that and claim you made the right choice, well then you're not a good person and ew. That's gross. What’s wrong with you? I think killing anyone should be reason to put you on the "ok to have their goodness judged list." Even under the circumstances of being enslaved, she's taking the easy way out by killing her in my opinion. She’s not giving everyone a fair opportunity to even live. But besides the fact that she carved up her daughter in the same way we carve up filet mignons (I mean seriously is there no other humane way of killing people? She couldn’t have just like poisoned the baby or something a little less…gruesome???), I consider Sethe to be a bad character because of the way she runs her family. “What Kevin have you read anything at all she’s caring for Denver and she’s making the best of the worst situation what are you crazy out of your mind!?” Whoa kind sir or madam, I know that Sethe has done some pretty wonderful things for Denver and others. However, I think that if she wasn’t so headstrong and narrow minded she would listen to Denver and the rest of the world when they tell her to get out of the haunted house. Denver is falling apart because of living in that house, yet Sethe won’t budge because she’s tired of running. It’s that selfish pride of Sethe that creates a living hell for Denver. By not even considering how her decisions are affecting the only person she has, Sethe is showing the readers that she doesn’t truly care about the well being of Denver if she won’t move from the haunted house to save Denver’s sanity. (Plus, it’s a haunted house and Sethe wants to stay. She herself must be evil if she wants to be in the evil all the time. Eureka. Sethe is evil.) It’s the lack of compassion towards Denver that makes me believe that Sethe is a bad character.
ReplyDeleteAnd as for the thing that confuses me, at the end of chapter 2 the phrase “How loose the silk” is repeated. I have a hankering it has to do with sex, but what’s the deal with silk? Why is it prominent? I assume it’s a metaphor for something because I don’t think slaves would have silk anything.
*Mr. Jozwiak*
I think Sethe has good intentions but enacts them poorly. In an attempt to protect her children from slavery, she starts killing them. Though this is incredicibley terrible, she truely believed they were better off dead than enslaved. I don't defend her actions because they were obscene, but I acknowledge her intentions. Sethe knew the horrors of slavery and didn't want her kids to face it.
ReplyDeleteAs for stones in the road, I don't understand the excessive use of color descriptions and Denver's strange behavior. I do have a theory though that she received some kind of brain damage either when her mother attacked her, or because of malnutrition when Sethe was a slave on the plantation.
Oh and I found it hilarious that the slaves chose to have sex with the cows just because Sethe was the only woman. That's kinda pathetic, but then again, slaves are usually portrayed as stupid. It also fulfills the stereotype of men being sex driven, so I guess this wasn't a stone in the road.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the majority of people that Sethe is a good person. She has a good heart but she has been out in many tough situations. Through all she's been through, from rape to slavery to killing her own child to losing her husband she has faced it and kept going through her life loving her daughter. She does seem to have trouble facing her emotions though which is part of the reason she gets herself into situations it seems. She tries to avoid any confrontation with bad thoughts.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I found interesting is though Denver's 18 she seems to have the attachment to her mother of a 6 year old. On page 15 she said " none of that had mattered (the leaving of the rest of the family) as long as my mother did not look away." This is a connection you see in young children not adults.
Geoffrey V
At this point, I would consider Sethe to be a good character. The only thing going against this seems to be that she killed her baby but she did it with good intentions. She also mentions how she felt guilty about it and wanted to explain her actions to the baby. It is clear that Sethe loves Denver by the way she defends her against Paul D.
ReplyDeleteChapter 4 threw me off because it ended with a more optimistic tone than the other chapters we have read. The carnival seemed out of place. And I think it's interesting how Denver always mentions her loneliness and even wanted the baby ghost to stay. I did get confused in chapter 3 when Sethe is running away pregnant and talks about an antelope? Was it an actual antelope or her baby? And why would she call her baby an antelope?
- Carlita Shen
As pretty much everyone else said, I think that Sethe is generally a good person. Even though she does things in the novel that may be surprising or unacceptable to us, she is put into situations in which it is hard or impossible to make a good decision. As we talked about in class the other week, one doesn't really know what decision they would make in a certain situation until they are put into that situation itself. Even though she might be making these choices, I feel like she's doing it because it's what she feels is best for her and Denver.
ReplyDeleteAs for what I found interesting, which kind of goes along with the decisions that Sethe makes, is that even though Sethe seems to have some kind of remorse for sleeping around, such as with the engraver, she still sleeps with Paul D pretty much right away when she sees him for the first time in 18 years. You'd think that one would learn from past experiences....? That or she just has a raging sexual appetite..
Stefanie Colletier
I might be climbing out on a limb here...but I feel like Sethe isn't good or evil; she's insane. I think in her mind her intentions are good but clearly the way she acts upon them (killing her baby, etc.) is borderline evil. (Also: there must have been some reason for all of her sons to leave) Granted, from what we have seen, she is a good mother to Denver and such, but I think only a crazy person would be able to justify killing their baby, staying in a haunted house that is destroying their other daughter, and stuff like that. I think that her incredibly disturbing experiences at Sweet Home have caused her to become emotionally unstable, and at this point we haven't really gotten the full story. Just a different point of view, I guess...
ReplyDeleteAs for "stones in the road," I pretty much agree with everyone elses. I was confused about the whole "tree on her back" thing, too. And what is the significance of Sixo's flame red tongue??? Also, I'm not sure if I completely followed what happened in chapter 3 (probably because I kept falling asleep...) but I want to know more about Denver because she seems like a very interesting character.
Oh and @Molly and John...yup. I got that too.
--Katie Oakes--
At this point I'm going to have to say Sethe is good. She may have killed her baby, but she did it to protect her, which she thought was right. Good and evil are very subjective things, open to anyones opinion. Sethe felt that she had enough reason to kill her baby, so she did. For that, I give her good. She did it, in her mind, in the interest of her baby, not for herself or some other cause. However, I wouldn't necisarrily agree with this course of action that she took, but how can I really know what she was feeling and what she went throught? The best I have are some history books that show a diluted version of slavery and this book, which pretty much shows it from how Ms. Morrison sees slavery, and she wasn't there. I have no idea what slavery was like, and I hope never to have to know, but I can understand that people do certain things in certain situations. She didn't kill her baby to be cruel. That I can respect. So yea, not evil. Lulz.
ReplyDelete~~~///***|||Max "Big Red" Moss|||***\\\~~~
At this point, I believe that Sethe is a good character. She is willing to do anything for Denver. The way she sticks up for Denver against Paul D is very motherly. Even though she had to end her own baby's life, there were probably good intentions behind that. She has been put through horrible situations in her lifetime and that just only made her stronger.
ReplyDeleteSomething that confused me was the part about Sixo and his woman. I wasn't able to understand Morrison's reason for explaining like one and a half pages about his relationship with her.
-Stacey Kim
Forgot to say what I thought was weird. Roflcopter. So yea. Now, I'm kinda going back to the beginning here, but why does Sethe's child, Beloved, not have a name if she was 2? Like, that's why Sethe names her Beloved right? But still, shouldn't she have a name?
ReplyDelete~~~///***|||Max "Candy Stealin'" Moss|||***\\\~~~
I believe that Sethe is a good person. Even though she had to end her own baby's life, she had to make a decision that was going to be better for the baby. She has gone through tough situations at Sweet Home and that made her a strong person and not necessarily evil.
ReplyDeleteI am confused about Sixo and his relationship with his woman. I didn't understand the reason for Morrison for adding that part into that chapter.
-Stacey Kim
I think that at this point in the story it would be pretty hard to decisively label Sethe as being evil. The only extremely bad thing she's done that we know about is the killing of her child, which is certainly an evil thing to do by most standards. However, to call her evil based entirely on her actions requires a kind of moral absolutism that most people seem to find over simplistic. Sethe did the evil deed out of compassion that, logical and justifiable or not, was real. Because of this, I think Sethe certainly qualifies as a good person in most popular and practical forms of morality.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I think is interesting about the book is the lack of reaction the characters seem to have about the ghost. The ghost is introduced in a matter of fact tone that makes it seem almost normal and unremarkable. Paul D isn't too disturbed by his experience with the ghost, and Denver's reaction to seeing a dress kneeling next to her mother is less incredulous than one would expect. It creates a magical realism setting, giving the story a sort of surreal quality that feels really strange and unsettling to me.
-Donald Magnani
I don't see Sethe as an evil character at all. After we realize that she murders her own child in the reason to actually save her, obviously she is not a woman with evil intentions. We see a small glimpse of her character up to this point, and she simply wants to love and be loved back. She's tired, ragged, whipped and seemingly alone. Sethe clings onto Paul D when Denver rudely asks him how long he will be staying. And we see a development of a change in heart of Sethe at the carnival, as she begins opening up.
ReplyDeleteSethe killed her own child, which sounds horrendous. But at the same time, we can see that she is such a loving character who has been hardened by time and the roughness of suppression and hate. Even still, she is able to open herself up as a nurturing mother and lover.
I just find the jumping in time frustrating, yet fascinating. It keeps me interested, especially when she gives us tastes and teasers of what the scenario was exactly in which she was lead to slit her baby's throat. I find it confusing, but at the same time I'm beginning to catch on.
-Yale Cho the Hoe
I think it's a bit early to be drawing assumption on Sethe's character, but i wouldn't be all too surprised if she did turn out to be "evil". They say the baby's ghost isn't evil repeatedly, but it has very violent tendencies, like throwing the dog against the wall, that i would classify as at the very least angry. The fact that they don't believe it is evil leads me to think that they believe its anger is somehow justified by how it was treated and its death. I feel like there is a lot of tension between Sethe and Denver and that it's certainly possible that Sethe had something to do with why all her other children left.
ReplyDeleteI found Sethe's stance on the past to be confusing. She talks about "rememory" and how nothing ever truly dies. She says "the picture of what i did...is...right in the place it happened." To me this sounds like remorse, but if she is so wrapped up in bad feelings at the house, why does she insist on staying?
-Andrew Freeman
At this point in the novel i really dont think that i would consider sethe an evil character. I think sethe is a good character, however, she doesn't seem happy. She has been through so much in her life that it has beat down her mental stability. Sethe seems to have it all there, mentally however with being on the farm with the 5 men, as well as all of the pregnancies, she has developed a tough skin for most of the things that are thrown at her. Deep down i do believe however, she does have a heart and it shows with her breakdowns during the novel. AS time progresses through the novel i think that the struggles she has been through will only multipy and this will only lead to a larger breakdown unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that i found intresting throughout the book is the sense of morality that some of men in the novel have. There were times where paul D surprised me in the early chapters because he seemed almost father like when he was visiting sethe and denver. This was surprising to see considering all that they have been through. i expected a breakdown from denver, but not the reaction from paul d which seemed to be fairly controlled and well handled.
-Chris Ramirez
At this point in the story, I would definitely consider Sethe to be a good person. She has experienced so many hardships throughout her life and even when she could have avoided some of those situations, she sacrificed herself, proving her devotion and love for her child. She has always put her children before her and that shows how good of a person she is.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I found confusing was why Paul D was "the kind of man who could walk into a house and make women cry." What is it about his presence that would make strangers open up to him?
-Anna Zeng
I don't see Sethe as evil. I see her as good, and very narrowly focused on her children, which is not a bad thing. I know that she killed her daughter, but really, she did that for her daughter's benefit. All she ever does if for her children's benefit. Even on page 20, when Sethe is talking about how she was raped, she is more upset that they took her milk, the milk which her daughter needed. So far, I think she has been set up as a good character. Still, by the end of chapter 4, the carnival leaves everyone off on a good note and hopeful, but this leaves me to believe that things are going to change for the worse, which might change my opinion of Sethe.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I found confusing is how did Paul D succeed in scaring the ghost out of the house? And if Sethe and Denver actually did enjoy the ghost's company, why didn't they stop him?
And lastly, on pge 45, it says "...leaving Denver's world flat, mostly, with the exception of an emerald closet standing seven feet high in the woods." Anyone know what the emerald closet is?
-Blaire Lurie
Sethe is a strong and independent woman, and she has been through a lot in the last 20-some years. I think she can be considered good because although she has lost so much in the past, she still knows how to show love to her daughter and protect her. I want to see Sethe as a good character, but all of the hardships she had to endure has toughened her to a certain point where I get the vibe that she does not feel sorrow or happiness for which I feel sympathy for her. In my opinion, a protective and loving mother is a good one, and Sethe is a good-natured woman who has lived and put up with all of the atrocities life put her through.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing I realized was that I think her strength translates over to Denver because Denver shows a lot of power in the way she talks to Paul D. I feel that she has lost a lot of her feelings and is like a rock. Her bottled up emotions are released when she is talking with Paul D., but on a regular basis she is very strong. I was so surprised at Denver's emotional strength especially when Denver is thinking of all of the times she did not cry.
I was very confused in chapter three. I had no clue what the whole thing about the antelope was. I do not understand how the antelope had anything to do with the whitegirl and whiteboy that Sethe met, and honestly, i thought that Denver was narrating at the beginning of the chapter.
grace lee
I thnk that Sethe is generally a good person mainly because she is sucha caring mother which makes me admire her a lot. She cares enough about her children to sacrifice her own body to merely get carvings on the babie's headstones. Sethe runs away from Sweet Home while she's pregnant which is probably a very hard task. She also slits her babie's throat, but only to save her from the future much worse than death, which is living as a slave. Although I could never truly know the hardships of being a slave, I can imagine the unbearable mental and physical abuse that was brought upon them. I also respect her for her strong will to live throughout all of the hardships she has been through.
ReplyDeleteWho's Sixo?
-James Shin
I can see traits in Sethe's character that could point in either direction. She seems nice enough when she talks, and as has been mentioned before, even the killing of her baby seems to be at least semi-rational and good-meaning. As of this point in the book, she doesn't seem to be specifically good or evil, though, because her decision to keep Denver in a dangerous, haunted house, in addition to her coldness and apathy towards violence, specifically on page 14 when she mentions watching people die and cleaning up after her daughter's spirit. If anything, I find Paul D to be the most sinister character at this time in the book: the way he seems to be able to make anyone cry, the uncaring mind inside his shell of outward emotion, and his conflict with Denver - whom I'm having the most trouble not identifying with - all seem to point towards him as a more antagonistic character.
ReplyDelete◘ Jeffrey Hoerman ◘
One thing that confuses me is the role of Denver's ghost in this story. As a supernatural being, it's always difficult to know exactly what it might be able to do, since ghosts vary between beliefs and stories. But beyond that, I'm mostly confused about what happened on page 22. It seemed like an earthquake or something, but the way Paul D reacted - smashing everything - caught me completely off guard. Was the ghost of the baby shaking the whole house? And if so, why?
Also, just to throw a couple answers out there to what a few people seem to be confused about; a bit general, since we're not far in the book, but explanations nonetheless.
ReplyDelete@Blaire - The "emerald closet" being referred to is Denver's makeshift playroom in the forest: a ring of tall bushes that she spends a lot of time in when she needs to be alone. (See page 34.)
@Katie - I believe trees in this book are used to symbolize strength or stability. The "tree" on Sethe's back is a series of scars from being whipped that resemble a tree of some sort, almost like a tattoo. Denver has her own trees, where she hides to recover from the stresses of her life, and Sethe seems to be a tree herself, the mark on her back carrying similar meaning as her "iron eyes."
@Mike M - The antelope is an analogy, referring to the baby that Sethe is carrying. By 6 months, it's getting close to birth and is probably moving around more, which is the "pawing" and "dancing," which I'm assuming would be rather painful. Apparently, when Sethe walks around, it's much more calm.
◘ Jeffrey Hoerman ◘
I think that Sethe is more of an evil character than a good one. Under no circumstances should you ever kill your child. Ask any parent, and they'll say that they would fight to the death to protect their child. Yes, Sethe's situation was probably the hardest. But if she was truly a good character, she would have acted in a way that would not have included her taking her own daughter's life.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I think a good quality that Sethe has is that she has learned a lot from her past. I'm willing to bet that if the same situation came to her again with regards to Denver, she would act differently, and I think that says a lot in terms of realizing that you might have made a mistake earlier in life.
One thing that sort of confuses me is why Denver likes the ghost so much. Morrison mentions that Denver likes the company, but I don't think someone who acts as immature as Denver does would find companionship with ghost. I would think they would be really scared. I think there's got to be something else. Any ideas?
-Eric Freeburg
First of all, I'd just like to say that the name "Yale Cho the Hoe" made me laugh!
ReplyDeleteO.K. Chapters 5-7. I liked them. Plenty of confusing things! Morrison is such a tease, though. I keep thinking she's gonna tell us something, but she always leaves us wanting more. i like that. I thought it was very interesting how, now that she's facing a painful memory (her dead daughter, Beloved), Sethe is becoming more comfortable acknowledging and revealing her past. I was very surprised when she asked Paul D. to vent to her in chapter 7. I'm also interested in the strange reaction everyone has to Beloved.
1) I want to know why Beloved shows up as a person NOW and not before. Why is even there? Is she on some type of mission? Does she just want her family?
2) I don't believe Denver knows who Beloved really is, so why, when she was so unwelcoming to Paul D., is she SO protective of Beloved?
3) What's Paul D.'s beef with Beloved?
4)What's with Denver's anxiety about stories that don't include her?
5) Is there something important we should know about the mark on Sethe's mom?
6) What's the significance of the shadows and their interactions?
hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
ReplyDeleteso i feel like a nerd right now, typing away on this blog when there's no question to answer, but i needed to write confusing stuff from the book somewhere! ( I left my journal at school T.T )
and i'm typing as i read so my questions might be answered later on in the stoorryyy
1. Is Denver a lesbian? or just really really really really REALLY lonely?
2. This Beloved character is fishy...
pg. 68 "Sethe was licked, tasted, eaten by Beloved's eyes." ------Morrison's diction is interesting...
3. wow, i am very confused at what happend in pages 72-74...
i really liked these chapters though!
Morrison's writing style is like poetry....
grace
okay so i pretty much read chapters 8 and 9 with no problems.....except the last part where Denver was talking about going to school and then going deaf (did she really go deaf?) and all that jazz I was just kind of confused with that whole thing....
ReplyDeleteas for beloved, i think she showed up now because she was finally pushed to that point by paul d's presence. before, she could just continue on with disturbing the house, messing things up and breaking them, and keeping others away by her supernatural antics. but now, somebody has come along who actually stands up to her and stays in the house despite her hauntings. probably never having had anybody resist her like this before, she probably felt that she had needed to take a different approach with paul to drive him out and continue both torturing sethe with the memory of what she did and stealing her attention
~Nicole Cholewa~
1. It said that beloved was almost at ease before Paul D arrived. The only thing i can think of that answers this question is that once the baby is disturbed, she comes back at this time to try and set things straight. The water obviously signified the birth of Beloved, so we can be sure that it is actually her and not something else. It seems as though beloved comes back now because she is disturbed with Paul D.
ReplyDeleteAlex Hattenhauer
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